Haunt Weekly - Episode 427 - Empowering Through Haunting

[0:23] Hello, everyone. I'm Jonathan. I'm Crystal. And this is Haunt Weekly, a weekly podcast with the haunted attraction and entertainment community.
Whether you're an actor, owner, or just plain aficionado, we aim to be a podcast for you.
And we return to you this week with a suggestion from one of you.
We'll give the credit where it's due in just a minute here. But yes, this was an episode decided by and recommended by one of you all.
We really do cherish your suggestions, and whenever they seem possible and good, we take them. and steal them and plagiarize them.
Well, okay, maybe not that. No, no, no. No, no, we don't do that.
But anyways, yes, indeed.
So please, if you do have suggestions for episodes, maybe some empowering suggestions, you could send them to us at hauntweekly.com, hauntweekly on Twitter, hauntweekly on Facebook, youtube.com slash hauntweekly's YouTube channel.
And of course, find us wherever you get your podcasts from. We are nationwide, worldwide, global, intergalactic.
Probably not that one, due to the speed of light.
And Andromeda should be getting ours in like a couple of billion years.
That's what they're shooting out into space now is us. Exactly, just us.
It's just us. They're shooting it right at Andromeda. We really are speaking into a void. Yes, we are.
Well, sometimes.
Sometimes.

[1:43] Well, on that note, everyone. Everyone, first, let's do all of our housekeeping and work we did for the Haunt Stuffer. We've got to take a few lumps this week.
Less us, more... Okay, so we could have done some work yesterday.
Yeah, but... We didn't. We skipped it Saturday because fuck that rain.
Yeah, New Orleans literally flooded on Saturday.
Like, places that don't normally flood were flooding. Yeah, and we were genuinely worried about our safety for portions of that day because of how crazy it had gotten.
Yeah, and we didn't want to be opening the back door to the house because there's no cover over it.
Yeah, and unfortunately, we've had instances in the past where when you open that door in a heavy rain, it will come inside the house.
Exactly. That's what I was getting to.

[2:36] Basically, we couldn't really work Saturday. There was no practical way to. Right.
Not in those conditions. And Sunday, you're right, we could have.
But also, since we nuked everything we needed to do on Saturday, because of that, Sunday ended up being way too crowded.

Carnival Season Hated by Mother Nature

[2:52] Yeah, it was a really busy day. It was an incredibly busy day.
And today's been an incredibly busy day, too. We're still getting caught up.
Yeah, so fuck that rain. I mean, we were talking about this elsewhere, but this carnival season, quote unquote, it's called carnival.
Carnival season, not Mardi Gras season. Mardi Gras is just one day.
That's Fat Tuesday. But this Carnival season has been unusually hated by Mother Nature.
Yeah. I mean, okay, it is winter and it is New Orleans.
Rain happens. Yes. That is part and parcel.
But here's the thing. The very first night of Carnival season, that January 5th night into January 6th, you know, the night before your birthday, was another one of these types of storms.
Yeah. It prevented us from going to the event we wanted to go to where we were going to get our first king cake of the season and drink some beer at Zoni Mash and hang out and celebrate the start of carnival season.
We had a beautiful plan, but we weren't comfortable getting across the river and driving on unfamiliar roads in that kind of rain. That's something you learn in New Orleans.
If you don't know which streets flood, you don't drive in that neighborhood during potential flood conditions.

[3:58] Right. Right. Like, so far, I have been lucky and not been stuck at work whenever a torrential downpour started.
Yeah. Because I just don't go into the office, the physical office on those days, because I don't know the streets over there, but I know that some of them do flood. Yeah, that is a flood-prone neighborhood.
We both know that pretty well. In fact, there were pictures of multiple cars that had...

[4:22] Been washed in the water near my office.
Yeah. Like the exit that I take. Yeah. There were actual cars lost in this storm.
Just yesterday, Saturday. Yeah. We're recording actually on Monday, but we usually record on Sunday, but we're recording on Monday today.
But yeah, no, there were actual cars destroyed by this flood.
Yeah. And it was just wild.
So yeah, that didn't happen.
Realistically, you're right. We could have done something Sunday.
So we have to take a lump for that. But honestly, Obviously, Sunday ended up being way too stuffed.

Guilty Pleasure TV Shows

[4:55] But that said, every week we also do ask a question of the week. Enough about flooding.
Let's move on. Let's talk about some other garbage.
Okay. Last week we asked you, what is your favorite guilty pleasure TV show?
And you all showed up. Yeah, you did.
Tim Fowler said, Thousand Pound Sisters. Sisters, and that was joined by Micah Arnold on that one.
He talked about how he quotes the show all the time. Yeah.
And, you know, I've got to say, I could have put on my Guilty Pleasure TV show, My 600-lb Life.
I don't really watch that. Ellie has it on sometimes when I'm in the room. Same.
But I also, it's one of those things, I'm usually playing video games or something else while it's going on, but it's like, Jesus Christ.
Christ and it's usually not at the person who is you know overweight or trying to lose the weight it's usually at whoever's around them I'm yelling that at yeah you see a lot of codependent relationships on that yeah it's nuts yeah it's absolutely nuts and I get really pissed not at the person trying to lose the weight not that that person usually sometimes they piss me off but usually it's not that person usually it's the people around them I just want to smack around.

[6:11] Anyways uh chris gay said i've been i can binge watch old mythbusters episodes non-stop hey that's not guilty pleasure no that's just awesome yeah i love mythbusters i i especially love mythbusters as it got on i think the mid-seasons were probably the best like after they got carrie grant and all them um just because i think they added a great dynamic to the show and let them take on more projects um you tell the first few seasons they were trying to figure out what the fuck this show show is, and trying to really nail down how it was going to work.
And I think they got the formula down, I think it was like season three or whatever, and it just ran pretty solidly. If you are not watching Adam Savage's Tested channel, you are missing the fuck out.
It is great. I cannot recommend that channel enough.
Victor Ruelas said, used to watch Monster Garage.
That's a show name I haven't heard for a long time. Oh, I know.
We used to watch it, though, way back when.
We did. We did. Way back when. He learned to teach...

[7:14] It taught him to occasionally make something ridiculously outrageous just for fun.
I think that's so cool. I don't think that's a guilty pleasure either.
Monster Garage was a lot of fun.
I mean, we used to, like I said, we used to actually watch it pretty regularly.
It was one of those shows we didn't, we called it Roberta McClellan's Selling Sunset. I have not actually seen that show.
I don't know that I've even heard of it. So, yeah.
Christian Ristow said Face Off. Which, I mean, we talked about that.
I think if you work in the haunt industry, especially doing anything with makeup, you can bill for the time you spend watching baseball.
Yeah, but he also said that he doesn't feel guilty watching it.
No, I mean, no. That's practically work at this juncture.
And Benjamin Rodriguez, I don't have one because my taste in television is immaculate.
I'm calling bullshit on you right now, just so you know.
I could hear the sarcasm in that. Yeah, I had to include it because nobody's taste is immaculate.
I refuse to accept that.

Haunting as Empowerment

[8:16] But this week's question of the week, we're getting a little more serious this time around.
In what ways has haunting empowered you? Now, we're going to go into our stuff in a little bit.
But I'd be curious to know, how has haunting empowered you? How has it made you feel more powerful, more in control?
Let us know. HauntingWeekly.com, HauntingWeekly on Twitter, HauntingWeekly on Facebook, spoke and youtube.com slash haunt weekly leave a comment send us an email we read everything.

[8:43] All right so into this week's main topic um because first off we need to thank the person who suggested it because it was a great topic idea it was by brian fitzgerald who just wrote us first time writer i think he said yeah a long time listener and honestly it's a great and he heard the episode we did about so you think you You can't haunt. Yeah.
About how you think you're too short. You think you're this or that.
You can't haunt. Bullshit. You know, here's some suggestions to make that work for you. Yeah.
But his idea was basically how can haunting empower people? How can we make haunting an empowering thing?
Yeah. And honestly, that's a good idea. That was a straight fire good idea.
It is. I had no notes. It was a good idea. Mm-hmm.

[9:29] Yeah, so for many and for most of the existence of haunted houses, it's been known as kind of a safe space.
It's a place where people who maybe don't feel like they fit in elsewhere in society, elsewhere in their school, elsewhere in their workplace, whatever.
A place where they can come, be among colleagues, be among like-minded friends, and share a common passion and a common love unabashedly and unashamedly.
And that makes it by itself a place of acceptance and empowerment.
Yeah, and I know that that isn't true for everyone's story or for everyone's experience with haunted houses.

[10:08] But the overall feeling is that it is very welcoming for the people who are a little bit weird, who like the dark side of life a little bit more than everybody else, you know because you've got to be able to to look at death and look at the scary parts of life and use that in your craft for haunted houses yeah and and that's not normal quote unquote quote unquote normal yeah no and and that is one of the issues like we were saying it there are people who like haunted houses often do not you know they're they're not often the popular kids we will say they're not often the normal ones the quote-unquote normal ones and almost boring is one thing we talked about a lot which we both think normal is boring if you're if you feel like you're one of the normal ones i'm sorry i don't know i don't know what to help you i don't know what that feels like so i i can't really comment on it and but also i think if you're listening to this podcast and podcasts like it you're probably not one of the normal ones yeah.

[11:21] Normal is a relative thing. Yes, it is. But still, I mean, but yeah, you don't fit in one of the neat molds, basically, that people like to put others in.
Yeah. And that can be real challenging sometimes. So we're working on a definition of empowerment.
Yeah. And for our purposes.
Hang on. I've got you got to open my drinks. I forgot to do it before we got started. So go ahead. All right. Done.
For our purposes, empowerment is giving someone the knowledge, ability, and bodily autonomy economy to make decisions for themselves.
Yes. We're going to talk about common ways that you can empower people in your haunt.

Empowerment Varies by Individual and Background

[11:57] Yeah. Now, one of the things to bear in mind is that empowerment is going to look different for different people. Exactly.
You know, basically someone who is maybe in the last years of high school is going to have very different needs, both physically, psychologically, et cetera, et cetera, than someone who may be in their 40s or later in their life.
Also, someone who's coming from a wealthy background will have different empowerment needs than someone who is from a poor background.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: Safety as Foundation

[12:25] Basically, what people... Because I tend to think of empowerment as almost like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

[12:32] And I'm not going to give the full spiel about it because it's something that hopefully a lot of people understand.
But the basic concept of it is that you have a hierarchy of needs and if the needs below it aren't met...
Then you can never start to achieve the needs above it. And the lowest need, the foundational one, is safety.
Basically, if you are in physical danger, you can never achieve anything further.
You can't achieve acceptance or enlightenment or anything else.
You can't move up that hierarchy.
And so, yeah, if you haven't looked up Maslow's hierarchy needs, I would definitely look up the pyramid.
It looks like the food pyramid, but it's not.
It's like the happiness pyramid. of it yeah but it's a really really great thing to understand when you're trying to uh be empowering to people because like i said the base need in fact i will just read it off real fast um physiological which is the safety you know basically all well first it's physiological which is breathing and food so i think yeah breathing food water yeah etc then it's safety then it's love and belonging flunging, then it's esteem, self-confidence, self-appreciation, self-worth, and then it's self-actualization, sometimes referred to as enlightenment. I've seen it called enlightenment and others.
But the idea is that is your morality, your creativity, your philosophy, you know, basically that level.
If you don't have the base needs covered, you can't cover higher up ones.

[14:01] And so, yeah, that's why empowerment looks different to different people.
If someone's higher up that pyramid then you need to focus on maybe giving them esteem giving them you know group to belong in but if someone is in danger in an dangerous environment regularly well then first priority is to get them out of that situation yeah but that's not necessarily something a haunt can address right so point being you kind of really need to have people to a certain degree of that. Yeah.

Haunts Can Provide Safety and Empowerment for Volunteers

[14:30] Other than, you know...
Then a haunt is a safe, isn't it? Well, yeah.
So what I'm thinking about is for the older kids in high school or the kids who volunteer at, you know, charity haunts.

[14:49] That may be getting bullied at school, going into an environment where they're not bullied, and they actually are in a position of power over the customers.
And they have that feeling of safety and empowerment. Yeah.
Empower. Exactly. So, yeah. That is a way that it can work. Exactly. Yeah.
All right. So, some ideas and suggestions for providing that empowerment.
Mm-hmm. Go for it. teach people the tricks of the trade scare acting building managing organization business, all of these things and if somebody's not good at one thing they may be good at another and it may be skills that they don't even know they're good at or will enjoy one of the things i do think haunts could do a lot better is like the i'm going to use the example of a liberal arts degree.

[15:41] Because the idea of a liberal arts degree is you get a little bit of training in this a little bit training that and you kind of get a little bit of everything and then you figure out what your specialization is going to be based upon your experiences in those various classes right, a lot of haunts you come in and we're not perfect to this either i'm not laying us out as an example of doing it right no but you get told you're a scare actor this is your role you either fail or Or succeed at that.
And that's like the end of it. Yeah. I think it would be better if we could expose new people who are coming into this Haunt community, the Haunt family, to a little bit of everything.

[16:21] Because it could be this person's not a natural scare actor, but they could be a goddamn good builder.
They could be an amazing painter, an amazing designer, an amazing makeup artist.
Yeah. You know, they could be any number of things.
Or they could be more on the op side of things. they could be helpful there, too.

[16:39] So, yeah, giving them, you know, teaching them tricks of the trade, as you say, helps them find something that they're good at. And here's the thing.
These are skills that they can use in their day-to-day life.
Maybe they don't go on to be a longtime haunt actor at your haunt.
But maybe they do discover a passion for acting. Yeah.
Maybe they don't become a great builder, but they discover a love for carpentry.
Yeah. or they you know decide that they really like doing math and books if they're working the ticket booth you know I mean there's all sorts of places that you can train people and positions and roles and and let them go up and the thing about it that I always have to remember is.

[17:26] Is I always say nobody wants to do the ticket booth. It's a good example.
I actually really enjoyed doing the ticket booth.
One night I got to do it. I had a lot of fun being that front line for his customer interaction.
I had a lot of fun. I would do that again in a heartbeat if I could.
That was a lot of fun, especially considering they let me do it in character and just really play around with it and be entertaining with them.
I enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun. But I always remember that I had a friend whose ideal job in the world, her happiest place was working at McDonald's with her manager and her crew.
Yeah. She couldn't fathom working any other job. No.
And she didn't care if the other job paid more, had better hours or what.
She didn't give a shit. That was her happy place.
So, you know what? But don't assume a place that isn't your happy place, isn't for you, isn't for someone else. Exactly.
That's what I'm trying to hit at. Yeah. Some people like what you may consider shit work. Yeah.
There are haunters out there, I've met them, who love being stuck behind a drop wall. Yeah.
Because it's an easy scare. They get good pops. And they can just sit there and do that all goddamn night and get rewards.
It's like a slot machine. They win every time from your perspective. And you know what?

[18:48] Godspeed yeah i i personally don't get that i need a little more creativity interactivity i need some play but you know what if that is your thing godspeed so never assume just because you don't like something or something is a shit job according to most people don't assume it is for everyone yeah because like i said when we were working a chamber there was that guy that loved the goddamn drop panel yeah oh and i know that you know.

[19:15] I know a few people in the industry who will nerd out with you about spreadsheets for hours. Oh, God. I have been in those conversations.
Oh, God. That was something we learned at Transworld last year.
Yeah, there are your data nerds in this industry. They are there, and they are very hardcore.
Yes. So, yeah, you might not get a new haunt actor, but if you get a business nerd, man, getting an accountant may be worth way more than getting a haunt actor. I'm sorry, but there's truth in that. Yeah.
But yeah, seriously, find what they love, find what they're good at, and that empowers people.
That really helps people because it feels like they're good at something, they're competent at something, and they're achieving something.
And that's really what this is all about.
Yeah, exactly. All right, next up. All right, so I'm going to add these two together, actually.
Share your story with people you're working with.
Be open and honest about how you got into it and why you love it and if it's helped you in any way and also listen to their stories but don't push them into telling you don't say okay everybody has to tell me your story tonight and go around an introduction to do that.

Creating a Safe Space for Sharing Experiences

[20:32] There's no alcohol in that drink you open no i know i just opened it it was a it's a coke zero Zero, I promise.
Uh-huh. But no, this isn't an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. We don't have to go around the room and share.
Exactly. But the idea is, yeah, if you are comfortable sharing why you're there, how it's helped you, share that experience.
Because if someone's struggling, especially on their first few nights, they might not understand why this can be empowering, why this can be something for them.
Well, and they may not feel comfortable opening up if they're coming from a difficult situation at home.
You don't always know where the people who are coming to you are working are what they're working with which level of that hierarchy You know working with but by creating a safe space having open dialogue including about.

[21:20] Difficult issues like mental health and social anxiety and Normalizing it that gives that space to for everyone to know.
Hey, it's okay if I talk about this yeah and it also you know may help people find their path to understanding how haunt can improve their life yeah because that's because basically you know i know there are plenty of people out there whose haunt experience was they showed up to work at a haunt they got stuck in a corner somewhere they acted for a night they their scares were mediocre at best and no one really talked to them everyone ignored them and then they left and then that was the end of their whole thing they They did like one or two nights and that was it.
And it's because no one took the time to reach out to them. No one took the time to include them.

[22:07] And no one, you know, realistically show them, Hey, this.

[22:13] Thing we do this crazy silly thing we do can have real benefits in your life yeah and that's a problem because they as the new person are not in the position to come to you right you have to make the point to reach out to them you have to work contacting and helping them so yeah that's the the main thing there okay um but the other thing is of course to listen to their stories as you noted to listen to them when they want to open up take the time eyes and ears open listen to them talk to them basically you know be there for them and just be prepared to listen and take that time having someone listen even about quote-unquote stupid shit can be one of the most empowering most wonderful things ever, especially if they're not someone who's used to having people listen to them.

The Power of Listening and Being Heard

[23:13] And many people are going to come to haunts from environments where that's the case. They're not used to being heard.
So yeah, being heard is going to be an amazing part of this experience for them if they're comfortable talking. Once again, as you said, don't pry.
Don't try to crack open the egg or whatever. Let them come on their own.
Some people take a lot of time.
We've heard on this from you guys. Some people have taken years to reach that level of comfort to open up.
That's fine. Let them open up at their time. But when they open up, listen, engage, eyes and ears open. Try to be supportive.
And one of the things is, don't try to fix things.
Don't immediately go into problem solving. One of the favorite questions you can ask someone who is talking with you is are you seeking solutions or are you seeking to vent? Yeah.
And if they say to vent...
Then don't offer solutions. You're done. Exactly. That's it.
But that's a very good question to get in the habit of asking.
Are you seeking solutions slash advice or are you seeking to vent?
And you'll find a lot of people really know what the solutions are, if there even are solutions.
They just want to vent. They want to be heard. That's it. Let them vent. Easy peasy.

[24:34] Next up is to encourage creativity and give autonomy.
Economy this i think is an important one that um a lot of places get wrong yeah um basically because here's the thing that a lot of people don't get is um remember that unrequested feedback is always criticism yeah even if it's fairly positive unrequested feedback it's criticism when people come to you and ask hey how am i doing what am i doing right that's when you can step in and give that advice, but offer constructive feedback when asked, but try to help them both have some degree of autonomy, even if it's a fairly small degree, and basically allow them to flex their creativity.
Even if it is simple as choosing the place in the room they pop out from, because something even that simple, it may seem like a dumb thing, But believe me, I have seen actors who discovered places to pop out.
A, I never would have fucking thought of.
It's a 10 by 10 room. How the fuck did you find a new place to pop out of?
You were in it for five minutes, you asshole, you know? Yeah.
Jesus Christ. I mean, John Beaton, way back when he was doing it, he hid behind a fucking pole.
No. He's not a pole width guy. No.
It blows my mind to this day that he pulled that stunt off so consistently. Yeah.

[26:02] Fucking magic act. But point being, giving people creativity and flexibility, A, it can help them pivot a room or pivot a scene that isn't working or may not be working as well as it could be.
And B, it gives them that authority. It gives them that control.
It gives them that, well, empowerment.
And it's a small amount, but it can be very huge.

Empowerment through Autonomy and Creativity

[26:23] And believe me, when people have that small amount of creativity, that small amount of input, and it works, you're going to hear about how happy they are over it yeah it is amazing how well that works they keep gushing they will gush and gush and gush about you about them about what happened but everyone oh my god this person you might have trouble shutting them up at that point just to be honest right but still that is a good problem to have it is um next when people do well Well, recognize those accomplishments and their progression, you know, notice if they started out a little weaker and got really strong, point it out, say, you know, good job.
This is, you started out this way and now you've come so far, you're, you're over here, you know, that's, that's a nice thing.
And also remember that not everybody likes public appreciation.
Yeah, that's true. That is, that is, you know, some people love it.

[27:26] I'm not one of those people. It's always awkward for me to receive praise in front of people.
Yeah. But. And also, I think private one-on-one praise is more impactful deeply.
Because it's seen as less performative.
Yeah. But there's also, you know, but that's during season.
Yeah. That's not, I'm not talking about your awards ceremonies.
No, no, no. People that go to that know that there's a chance that they're going to be called up for an award. Yeah, that's different.
At the end of the season festivities, or if you have even like an end of the night award thing, which some places do have, that's a different thing. Yeah. But obviously...
You know, focus on giving pointed praise and credit as it's due, as the night goes on, or even to the people that you don't give the big awards to.
Be sure to tell people that you notice they drastically improved or you like the change that they made.
Highlighting that thing can be very, very helpful.

[28:25] And recognizing accomplishments is very, very interesting because here's the reason I think that has such a strong impact is nobody really likes being known for one thing. And outside of the haunt, a lot of people feel pigeonholed for one thing.
Yeah. And it might be a hurtful thing in some cases.
It could be that they're the dork, the nerd, the outcast, the weirdo or whatever.
They're that weird smelly kid or whatever.
You know. That was a weird thing to pull out. I know. I don't know why I did.
But anyways, but there might be known for something negative.
But there might also be known for something positive. It might be the smart kid, the pretty one.
But still being known for one thing positive or negative feels like a typecast yeah and it feels like nobody knows you if they're only talking about one thing and i know for me like i'm especially these past few months i'm definitely very well known as the plagiarism guy yeah as the expert on plagiarism i don't think there's any doubt about that right now even for me i can't even fucking pull out doubt believe me if anyone can pull out doubt it's this guy yeah but even i I can't do it, but it's frustrating to be known as just one thing.
And it's one of the things I do love about haunt season and what I'm in the haunt and working in the haunt is I get to be known for something completely different.

[29:41] I get to feel like I'm accomplishing something in a totally different area that is separate.
And I'll feel like it adds depth to who I am.
And when that is recognized, I feel like others are recognizing that depth. Yeah.
And that is such a wonderful feeling right there.
So, yeah. Basically, this is a space for people to get additional accomplishments.
You know, some people are definitely known for being a haunter first and foremost. most.
But I think most people hear this is going to be their second or third accomplishment in life.
Yeah. And that's a great thing. This is adding depth, adding something that they can be proud of in addition to the other things that they're proud of. All right.

[30:25] Set clear examples, reasonable goals, and provide the necessary tools to achieve those goals.
Stating expectations and desired outcomes is going to help people find their strengths.
Like we were talking about, let them try different things so that they can figure out what that is.
And don't expect people to know everything that you know, if you've been in the industry for a while, because people are just starting out.
And that's one of the things that people forget a lot.
Like when they try to write instructions, um, is that not that guilty knowledge that you have of doing it for so long often gets left out yeah i used to joke the best way to write instructions is when you're drunk because that way you forget that guilty as much of that guilty knowledge as you can okay first thing is yes if you're altered um yeah but i always write like i'm writing to someone who's much much younger um and try to explain it for them yeah um which can come across as It was condescending. Yes. But...

[31:35] Uh, some people really need that. Well, some people really need that.
I often pretend like I'm writing a computer program because computers, turns out, are fucking stupid. No.
They're really, really fucking stupid machines at the end of the day.
And if you've ever done any degree of computer programming, the first thing you'll learn is that computers are fucking stupid.
No. And so I think this is one of the reasons why computer programming can be very helpful to anyone, not just people necessarily going into IT side, because it helps you understand that process of writing instructions from zero.
And like you said, I know I've routinely run into this as someone who has a relative degree of expertise in the field, assuming everybody knows at least some of what I know. Right.

Elevating People through Clear Instructions and Empowerment

[32:26] And the answer often is no, they don't.
And so you do have to start from the very, very basics. because you do have to start at that 101 level.
And that is not condescending. That is just helping elevate people. Exactly.
So don't assume that anybody knows anything.
That's why we put the definition of empowerment at the beginning of this so that everybody can be on the same page with us.
Yes, even though we said empowerment does look different to different people, but the point remains. I know.

[32:55] But in this, you also want to give people the ability to try something new and fail because not everybody's going to be good at everything and failure is a great learning tool yeah and the two things about failure is what do you learn from it and how quickly do you fail yeah because you want to fail fast but fail smart yeah you want to learn something from it but you want to fail and move on yeah you do it and you leave as long as it's a safe put a safe way to do do it in the haunt and not when customers are there, preferably.
But that's what you do. But at the end of the day, hopefully we're not doing anything as dangerous as like parachuting.
No. Or failure is like literally a matter of life or death.
Yeah. Or not giving people power tools and not instructing them and watching them the first few times they use them.
Let's get a little Jimmy there, the reciprocating song. Watch what happens.
Oh, you're a chainsaw guy. What do you mean you've never held a chainsaw?
What do you mean? Six-fingered Jimmy? Yeah.

[34:03] But, yeah, basically, obviously, don't play around with failure in a safety environment.
Right. But in terms of trying a task and achieving it, if they're not able to achieve it quickly, or, you know, a lot of the times the best thing to do is, okay, here's what we're learning.
Yeah. And we're moving on. We're going to try something different.
Oh, and I know I've told this story before, but I'm going to tell it again because I like it.
Um we had a young girl who was helping do a set design for us one year and it was um a little girl's room and she wanted to put forks in the wall i mean admittedly didn't look bitching it did um and i said okay are you sure that's going to be safe and she's like yes and this is an older teen yeah um and i'm like okay so if people run into them it's going to be safe yes it's going going to be safe because the points are going to be in the wall.
And I'm like, okay. So I gave her a thing of forks and a hammer, let her go to it. And then when she was done, I said, okay, now run into it.
And she wouldn't do it because then she got my point that it was unsafe. Yeah.
And now it didn't take her long and I didn't let her put the whole 25 pack in.
I just let her put in a couple. Yeah.

[35:18] Realistically, I mean, nothing in this was ever going to be customer facing.
No. And what she ended up doing after ended up being really cool.
Yeah. She actually did learn from that and ended up doing, I can't remember exactly how she did it, but she managed to mount them flatware style, like flat up against the wall.
And it looked actually way cooler. Yeah.
And it looked still very relevant to the scene. It still looked scary. It did great.
And I think a better scene and a safer scene came out of it. Mm-hmm.
Which is exactly what you want. Yeah.

[35:47] But, yeah, basically allowing people the chance to fail. But as long as they fail quickly and fail in a way that helps them grow, failure can be an amazing tool.
Yeah. And I think that's the main thing is like we view failure.
If you view failure as solely a negative thing, it's going to be solely a negative thing.
Yeah. And premortems can help a lot with this because when you're doing your premortems for things, you can talk about how things can fail.
But that's also a very open discussion environment where you're just brainstorming and everybody's throwing out deal ideas.
And that's obviously an easy way to fail productively.
Yeah. Agreed.

[36:32] So, and on that point, if corrections are needed, point out what is being done right as you point out the correction.
And one of the things, like with that story you were telling, we made it clear that it looked really cool.
Yeah. And her method for getting the forks into the wall was actually very creative.
I mean, I would not have thought you could just hammer into that kind of paneling.
That was actually pretty clever, I've got to admit. admit.
So good ideas, good visual, and it would have worked great from an art standpoint, like it would have been an art exhibit.
But when you're scaring people and they're behaving unpredictably and they're going to hit that wall, it is not safe.
That was the only issue. But once again, we highlighted how we did like the aesthetic, we like the look, and we wanted to find a way to keep that look while making it so that people don't, you know, die. Yeah, exactly.

Failing Fast, Failing Safely, and Failing with Education

[37:22] And so drilling Rilling that home, I think, really helped her because it ended up being her room.
Yeah. When it was done, it was very much her room in terms of the design. It looked very cool.
And it was, like I said, a product of her imagination, her effort.
And she knew it and was very proud of it, as she should be.
Yeah. But, yeah, that was a good example of failing fast, failing safely, but failing with learning and failing with education. This is a great story.

Empowering Customers: The Key to Haunt Success

[37:56] So real fast, as we've got a few minutes left, we're going to talk about how to empower customers.
Yes. Because I think that's the crux of how you empower the people working with you and underneath you in a haunt. How do you empower customers?
I think the first thing we need to talk about is so many haunts are like we need to ramp up how scary it is. It needs to be scarier and scarier and scarier.
And the thing is, like, make it scary, but don't make it traumatic.
Yeah. There's a big difference there. There are extreme haunts out there.

[38:32] And there do appear to be one of the things we haven't watched.
Well, we did watch The Latest Reckless, Ben.
Yeah. And there are haunts that are following in the sort of the pattern of what McKamey Manor was claiming to do.
Yeah. But was not actually doing. Right.
But is doing it, A, safely. safely and be you know with you know proper protocols and protections for people in place including safe actually hearing the safe words yeah and things like that so there do there are extreme haunts out there that maybe this doesn't really apply to but honestly if you're a regular haunted attraction being traumatizing is not a positive no no you won't haunts are meant to be be like video games. They are meant to be beaten.
Your customers are supposed to win. Well, I understand keeping a tally of the people who chicken out or whatever.
That's a thing, but you got to realize at the same time, those people who are chickening out are not getting the full experience.
They're not leaving with a smile on their face.
They're not happy and they're not going to come back.
Yeah. And lots of times the reason people chicken out are either A, they They weren't prepared to go into the first place. Right.
I mean, that could be it. Or it could be, I've seen many times where actors have just gone, targeted the same person over and over, because that's the only person in the group giving a response. And that person...

[40:01] Is on the edge of a traumatizing experience. Yeah.
And that person then does not feel physically safe and haunted.
Exactly. It's not about, you know, oh, the haunt was too scary.
It's no, they do not feel physically safe.
Exactly. In that haunt. It's the difference between the roller coaster being too scary and the roller coaster having bolts flying off of it as you're riding in it. Yeah.
There's one kind of scary that's a lot of fun and we all enjoy.
And then there's another kind of scary that we do not enjoy. Yeah.

[40:32] And basically, we want to make sure that customers know they are physically safe.
And yes, they're going to be scared, but it's a safe kind of fear that they will, at the end of the experience in particular, enjoy and laugh about and cherish.
Part of that, though, is, like you said, preparing people before they go in, alerting them, especially to any potential triggers or harmful content yeah um and also safety things like if um you're accessible for you know mobility and flashing lights and that kind of thing yeah physical issues as well including like i said strobe lights that might be in use um having now been through haunts with someone who has yeah a very severe aversion um or severe difficulties with strobing lights yeah um i I gained...

Setting Expectations and Age Limits for Haunt Experiences

[41:24] I mean, we don't do strobe lights. Anyways, I just find the fuckers annoying.
Yeah. You know? Yeah, but now we're really conscious about the movement of light.
Yeah. In the haunt. Because we do use moving lights. They've just never been strobing.
You know, like flame lights and chasing lights and things like that.
We've never just done strobe. We've never done... Because I just find strobes so fucking annoying. I hate them.
I don't... They don't give me a headache. They don't do anything.
I just don't like them. There's a difference. I admit it, it's just I don't like them.

[41:55] Yeah, but be clear about the expectations of what will be in there.
There is an expectation of violence, I think, implicit in a haunted attraction.
But how graphic is the violence? Will there be sexual content?

[42:08] What language will be used, et cetera? You suggested setting an age limit or a recommended age, making sure that's set well. That's a tough thing to do.
Because, like I said, I have seen five-year-old kids go through our haunt and just tank the whole thing with a smile on their face. and I've seen 50-year-old people fall to goddamn pieces in it.
Yeah, me too. So I don't really know how you set an age limit, but I mean, I would look to the MPAA system and sort of let that offer you guidance.

[42:39] And yeah, the MPAA system doesn't make any fucking sense, I understand.
Right. But it is kind of our societal expectation around an age limit.
You can either do that or if you're into video games, understand what the age gate system and the video games does the SRB systems but yeah something like that they don't make sense they're weird they put way way too much focus on sexual content over violent content I think in terms of age restrictions um it's amazing like you can like the use of the word fuck if you say I'm gonna fuck you up with this desk yeah that's not nearly nearly as bad as saying, I'm going to fuck you on this desk.
I've never understood that in my life. Because, you know, we're pretty much all here because of fucking.
One is fucking violence and one is fucking not.

[43:29] I've never understood that, but it is our societal expectations.
And yeah, the whole point of this is to give people the empowerment and give people the ability to make decisions for themselves. selves.
And one of the decisions they may make is to not go to your haunt.
And that's okay, as long as it was an empowered decision, as we keep saying, as long as it is the decision that's right for them.
Because I would rather have someone not come to our haunt than come to it and be traumatized by it or be damaged or otherwise have an incident in the haunt that That hurts them, is disruptive to us, and is upsetting to everyone involved.
I would rather give them the information they need to make that choice to not come.
Yeah. And honestly, yeah, that's it. You know? Yeah.
Understand that by giving people that, you know, the information they need to make that decision, some may decide not to come.
And that's okay. That's actually the desired outcome.

[44:32] I think that's all we have this week. Yeah. Well, on that note, everyone, thank you very much for joining us for the past 45 minutes or so.
Please, if you have any suggestions on ways haunts can empower people, whether they are the haunter, your fellow haunters or customers, let us know.
Hauntandweekly.com, Hauntandweekly on Twitter, Hauntandweekly on Facebook, and YouTube.com slash Haunt Weekly. Would love to hear your thoughts on it.
But until next time, I'm Jonathan. I'm Crystal. And we will be back for episode 428, which is divisible by four, which means it's time to do the news.
But if things go according to plan, we will be doing this one from the road.
Yeah. So this is going to be interesting.
I don't know exactly how this one's going to work, but we are actually planning currently to leave town so we are not here during the craziest parts of Mardi Gras.
Yeah. So we will see you all next week, probably from somewhere not named New Orleans. We'll see you all then.