ntroducing Haunt Weekly, a podcast for the Haunted Attraction Community

[0:23] Hello everyone, I'm Jonathan. I'm Crystal and this is Haunt Weekly, a weekly podcast for the Haunted Attraction Entertainment Community. Whether you're an actor, owner, or just plain aficionado, we aim to be a podcast for you. And this week we are returning with a topic that I, have never wanted to talk about less and at the same time never wanted to talk about more because of recent events. Right. I'm super conflicted about doing this episode at all, but I think you'll understand why we've had to do this hour yeah on this so stay tuned we'll be getting into the we'll just say um the latest news involving mckamey manor it's a series it's a series it's, news it's a series it's not well for us it's not a series for us it's literally going to be one episode yeah we're going back to not avoiding the bullshit we're talking about a series yes, we're talking about a series but anyways if you don't want to talk about this topic hey i Understand completely. You don't listen to it. I don't blame you plenty of other episodes 405 of them as a matter of fact, Yeah, check them out at home with you. Calm home weekly on Twitter I'm looking at Facebook youtube.com slash hot weekly is the YouTube channel and check us out wherever you get your finer podcast from.

Late Posting Due to Illness and Haunt Work

[1:35] Posting a little bit late this week to be honest And the reason is because we both have been a little sick this weekend. Yeah, So that plays directly into the work we did for the haunt, which we actually did do some work and pretty significant work actually.
Yeah, the main thing was that we've finally got, we have this giant eight foot bookshelf that I grabbed from my grandparents and it's very heavy.

Moving the Bookshelf: A Laborious Task

[2:06] And we have moved it to its new location. Yeah, we had to do the thing where you lever it up, put it on skates and push it around and then and even that didn't work like, fully no only because the bookshelf is not in the best condition no we had to put a frame on the bottom of it to even have it be vertical yeah stop and and the thing is it's real wood it's real heavy solid wood it is just heavy is all fuck but it's just been through the ringer and parts of it that were particle board yeah completely corroded so it basically wasn't structurally sound we had to build a whole new base and back for it and that we when we built that we weren't thinking about how we were going to move it yeah so it's never gonna need to move yes and that does sound exactly like but we did get that we got the rest of the demolition we needed to get done done I think we're on the way I know it we're getting a late start this season because of the incredible heat we've had the entire month of August, just no fucking brakes.
Um, so yeah, we're getting a light jump, but I think actually we're not in that bad of a place.
We've definitely had worse starts.
Yeah, uh, I can't remember one in recent history. Well, we don't have much of a recent history.
No, well, and right before that we were smarter than this because we remembered that summer is hot.

[3:29] Yeah, but to be clear, like this summer was extra spicy. It was.
It was consistently in fields like temps of 110s, and that's just not safe to work in an un-air-conditioned garage.
But yeah, we actually got some progress done on the haunt. Happy about that.
Looking forward to starting some builds maybe this weekend or this week even.
Yeah.
We got a few builds in mind we want to get on and we just need to go pick up some supplies I think.
So yeah, things are actually going pretty smooth. Don't have a lot to say or add there.

[4:01] So moving on to the next topic. Every week we try to do a question of the week and two weeks ago because last week we had a live recording with Japes and the people from Nile Scream Park, the lovely folk there. And we'll be getting back into some of the stuff from that in a minute.
But every week we do try to ask a question. We could two weeks ago we asked you, what's your favorite kind of Haunt Weekly episode? The rare question where I try to get some actual useful information out of it and everyone screwed it up. Literally there was a defender or two for at least every, Episode type we do Basically, I learned just keep doing the mix you're doing, But yes, Roberta McClellan said anything to do with improvement. She prefers things like on how to improve actor training and things like that.

[4:49] Portals of fear Sam Farrell and Keonee Hutton said new episodes news episodes news episodes Which is weird because I'm gonna just behind-the-scenes shit here. I know the news episodes get like a fraction, Yeah, the lessons it's seriously our listenership is pretty solid most regular episodes, but every news episode it takes a pretty steep dip, I don't know why we believe the news is important. We don't give a shit. We're not sponsored. We're not losing money You know, so why not keep doing we think it's important Victor Ruelas It says he likes the deep dives and like I said, thank you everyone for your feedback Yeah, but in congregation it was completely useless Still, it was very flattering to hear that there was a fan of at least pretty much every at the type of episode we do. Yeah.
Because you know, I don't know. It's just what sort of developed organically Like people like we get all these questions about how did you plan to do the news episode this way in that way?
We didn't know we just kind of made this shit up as we won't go back to the temps those in the teens.

[5:51] Those are rough. Yeah, All right, but also it is an even number episode means we do conference reminders Yes, but we need to ask the question of this. Oh, that's right. Sorry. You're right. You've skipped away We don't need to ask a question a week. So what's the most favorite character you've ever played?

[6:09] Okay. Now you've played way more characters. I mean my answer. No, my answer is obvious. I'm Bernie Baxter, I knew it was a character. I was gonna have fun with because when we created the character way back in 2005 I really didn't know what I was gonna do with it. Yeah, all I had was a very non-gender specific witch's mask. Yeah. And a top hat and basically some, bullshit to be a carny barker and it's been fun. It's a character that has evolved organically and I love that. But you've played a different character every year. I do, yes. So what what is yours? I'm actually very curious. I really liked the librarian. I think she got a lot of reactions and a lot of interactions that the characters don't always get. It was a very good character for interaction. I remember watching some of the security camera footage and even being able to hear in that first room a fair amount of time because you were right there in the first room when you were doing that. And, yeah, very interactive, much fun. Also someone person that was very different from you. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I think that's why I like her. Yeah, it was a fun time.
All right. Now do we do conference reminders? Sure. Let's do conference reminders. We need a producer, someone to nudge us and go, you didn't ask a question to a weak asshole. That's why he doesn't, have to be. That's what I just did. I know, but you're a co-host, not a producer. Well, you know.

[7:36] Doing double duty. But then again, that's what was, and again, we're all pulling six jobs here lately. I've got multiple hat racks. It's fine. She's not wearing multiple hats. She's wearing the whole goddamn factory. Anyways, conference reminders coming up this weekend, September 16th and 17th in Santa Ana, California at the Heritage Museum OC. It is Creep It Real OC. Over 100 vendors expected. CreepItRealOC.com. And then September 30th, it's the Lost Souls Haunted Bus Tour.
Um also October 7th yeah it's September 30th and I think the 6th and 7th okay it's three nights but doesn't fucking matter because the September 30th one at least it's sold out so is the September 7th, all right you're down to step so basically for you who haven't bought your ticket yet it's on September 6 yeah October 6 sorry so if you're If you're interested in that, buy now.
Obviously. Buy five minutes ago. I don't even know if it's still on.
I checked this like hours ago. It could be totally different situation now.
But lostsoulchicago.info. And if you have not bought tickets, and you're one on the fence about that October 6th date, Japes dropped the bomb on us on the last episode that this is the last tour.
Dirty son of a bitch did.

[9:04] So. This is the last tour. Did Bailey leave it open many years down the road? Yeah now I will say that.

[9:12] October 16th, so this weekend. Yeah, if you didn't pay attention to last week's episode, Get your butt over to Niles in Michigan. Yes, they're doing a big cool event for honors against hate there Yeah, there with a lot of guys the whole message again. What is the collective noun for?
Traveling actors or guest actors. Damn it. That's a great fucking question. We should have asked that. All right We're changing the question of the week right reactive change. What is the collective noun for a large group of?

Haunters and the Collective Identity

[9:44] Haunters yeah, is it a boo would it be? What would it be? I don't know. What is the collective now?
Like a murder of crows a herd of cows. Yeah, what is our collective now? Oh, but it's whatever that is You'll decide hauntweekly.com hauntweekly on twitter hauntweekly on facebook youtube.com slash hauntweekly new question of the week We'll just have two questions so we realistically what's gonna happen, We've split the universe I think we just asked this one. Anyway, go ahead then coming up october 13th through the 15th Yes, middle of season. I know it's son of monster palooza in Burbank, California The Burberry a Burbank Hotel celebrity panels and photo ops costume contest and a trade show floor, monster palooza calm slash fall and then finally November 10th and 11th, it's legendary haunt tour in Salem, Massachusetts.

[10:42] They will be visiting haunted overload fright Kingdom Barrett's haunted mansion, legendary haunt tour with two t's calm all right well there's no good transition here no there's just not we've got some heavy news coming out of Ravens grin in in Illinois yeah legendary haunt run by the equally legendary Jim Warfield we were fortunate to go to it many years ago or several You know not many years ago Jonathan. Yeah sometime several years ago We were lucky enough to go to it and get a private tour, The two of us and a sit-down and a sit-down interview with Jim Warfield So if you go into our archives, we have a full we got that man to sit down for a fucking hour and focus on it That's amazing.

[11:32] But yes, the sad news is that Jim Warfield posted on Ravens for an end it was also shared by his wife Jessica, That he was diagnosed with having Alzheimer's, hours. His plan right now is to continue going as long as possible with help from Jessica.
Jessica, he says, will be there to step in and help and take over duties as needed, which, is she's been there for 22 fucking years. Yeah, she's been helping behind the scenes for a long time. She's been there a long, long time. In fact, it was funny when someone said it was 22. I'm like, it couldn't have been 22. It was like 12. And then it rose.
Oh, no, it was 12 when we went. Yeah.
Yeah. It was 12 when we went. It's been that long since we were there.
Um, but yeah, but right now he is sticking to reservation and small groups only.
So there is a posted comment on the Ravens Grand Facebook page if you are wanting to take a tour in the near future. So please follow the guidelines there.
He asked that if you come to the haunted house, if you come on a tour, please stick to the fun stuff.
Basically stick to having fun in the haunted house. Enjoy yourself. Laugh. No sad shit, I'm paraphrasing obviously. Yeah, but I mean it it gets the sentiment of cars basically. Yeah, peace be happy.

[12:51] All right So I fucked up the notes when I put things out of order Yeah, I put things horribly out of order now and I'm realizing that because I did these notes very piecemeal and it's showing Usually I do it all in one like blob. Yeah, me too, but this wasn't how this one got written, unfortunately, So we do have some other updates a non hot related update non hot build related updates for us, We were able to get by Home Depot finally, And I've got to say their selection, Hey, well a their website is full of lies Yeah Their app said they had spiders and that was it and nothing else and here's the thing Home Depot The depot technically always has spiders, you're just not able to take them home.
You have to kind of get them by accident usually.
But yeah, but they had a pretty decent selection of 12, 13, 14 foot animatronics and things.
And there were some things that had really good movement. There was one animatronic with a witch, it was one of the shorter ones, but the face actually looked very realistic.
It actually looked really good.
But the main thing is everything looked poorly built.

[14:03] I don't know how well they build. Well we heard reports about the winged predator thing, the big 14-foot wing thing breaking at the knees and I took one look at the build and went, oh yeah that's where it's gonna break. Yeah because the wings basically are a sail and it got pushed back and that's the weakest point on the legs. Yeah because it's got a monstrously good stand.
Yeah. Like the actual stake part that goes on or in on slash in the ground is very very hefty, beefy looking. So yeah that's not going to move. It's not going to tip backwards. It's going to break at the knee. Yeah that makes perfect sense. Yeah I think it might have actually survived if it had been able to tip over. Yeah exactly. I was wondering if maybe tipping over now becomes a self-preservation feature for some of these. Yeah. But anyways oh that said they also had the cheap skeletons. $30 a skeleton. Great deal there. They also had some bat skeletons and we bought the last one. Yeah. We got one of our actors is going to be making use of it. Yeah Those have been all over Facebook and elsewhere if you I'm sure you've seen them, but what I didn't.

[15:05] Realize before I touched it is it not only do the wings expand but they're ratcheting wings So you can put them at different levels of open which is nice. That is neat, Uh, so yeah, we bought the last one at ours. Yes Um, oh, no, I I was happy with the selection. I did enjoy going through it, I just don't think I'll ever buy one of the large animatronics. I think that the 12-foot skeletons becoming that surprise hit, Has pushed both Home Depot and Lowe's to sell a lot of 12 10 plus feet tall stuff will say and not really focusing on quality.

Introduction to the main topic: McKamey Manor

[15:44] So anyways Moving on to our topic this week our main topic. We're only 15 minutes in Um, which is good. It means I don't have to talk about this as long, Works out great for me because this is a video. This is a this is a podcast. This is an episode, I both really wanted to do and, Really never wanted to do. Mm-hmm Cuz basically I never ever ever want to give oxygen to McCain a manner. Yeah, it's really that simple. Exactly I I was pissed when that Haunters documentary spent like 60% of their time on them Mm-hmm. I was really pissed about that.

[16:22] But yeah, we we don't but the thing is like we do want to use what platform we have especially within the haunt community, To give some attention to a series of new videos, that have been posted dealing with Uh mckamey manor basically the idea is they are quote-unquote infiltrating and exposing. I don't know how much of this is an infiltration, Right, but we'll get to that in a minute. They call it infiltrating mckamey manor. This really isn't an infiltrator They really just signed up. They really just walked in the fucking front door. I mean, let's be honest Well so far now we haven't seen the rest of that is true. There may be more videos, so far, so basically.

[17:00] If you are not familiar with these the series of videos by reckless bin and Danny Burke, Please stop listening here or soon after here. We have another section you can listen to and then go watch those videos Yes, there are it's a long it's gonna be a long watch. It's gonna be a couple hours. Don't get it wrong Well, I think we watched them all at the same time, which is unheard of for us. Yeah, we don't do that with TV shows No, no, we actually sat there for like three hours watching this shit pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks Japes Yeah, then by the way, that's the other thing I wanted to say was, We thank you Japes from posting about this and sharing this and giving it to us because I would never have found these guys, Without your help. So thank you Japes again amazing all souls and Well, so store that info. I'm gonna go please go. But yeah.

[17:52] But basically, yeah Basically, it's reckless. Damn it. You got me in a loop. Yeah, it's reckless Ben and Danny Burke. And basically what they did is they, attended McCabe manor if you will and, just simply shared an unflinching look at what their experience was right and if you want to support them they do have a Reckless Ben has a patreon and that's where you can get all of the full length videos. Because right now if you go on public YouTube there's five videos once again watch them all please pause now if you must and I would subscribe to both channels because I'm very sure even though there was an update entitled final McKamey Manor update it actually was the next to last video about McKamey Manor on the site so the updates are I'm very very sure of that and it'll be it'll be interesting to see what happens next But if you do go to Reckless Ben's Patreon, he has way more content there.

[18:49] Mm-hmm. Um So, yeah Basically go subscribe there watch those videos and the reasons I wanted to, Talk about this was a to give like it's a credit to them and talk and talk about what they did But also I wanted to chime in as kind of the IP guy, Yeah, it hangs around the hon industry, you know, and it's very creepy way, you know Because as an IP guy, IP issues became, intellectual property and stuff, became surprisingly, shockingly relevant as the story unfolded.
I'm not a lawyer. I'm going to say that now, and I'll reemphasize it later.
I'm not a lawyer, but I am an expert witness.
I've been certified in multiple courts that speak on copyright issues.
I will be certified in multiple, and I know, we'll just say I know enough about trademark for the things we're going to be saying here because you don't really have to know that much right it's not that I'm a genius at trademark I'm not but anyways so here's the plan we have we're going to first talk about what we thought my candy manor was before these videos mm-hmm talk about what's in the videos and then, I want to briefly hit on some things that we learned or things that I took away from them at least right and again there will be spoilers for the videos which is why you're stuck now yes if you care about spoilers go watch them and Then come back. I really do recommend it. I mean, we're all falling a little bit in love with Reckless Ben. No, he's a charming, dude.

[20:18] Little too young for any of us, but you know German guy So anyways, and then we'll talk about the IP stuff and then we're gonna kind of wrap it up So McKinney Manor what we thought McKinney Manor was before and this is based upon haunters, While we've seen in news articles and just talking with other haunters. Yeah, We always knew it was a scam. Yeah Let's just start with the beginning.
Yeah, because even if it was as described, there was no way to win.
Yeah. Like, because... Yeah, because basically, with McCain and Manner, there was always some prize if you could complete.
And I'm putting complete in the biggest fucking air quotes humanly possible.
If you could complete it.
But the problem is is that Russ McCamey the guy doing the stuff to you is the one who decides when you've had enough Yeah, and then magically no one's won.

[21:12] Yeah, nobody's won. Uh, so there was a lot of talk about safe words not being adhered to, Um things like that and and this is all in the before. Yeah, you know, and this is the before the videos Yeah, we're we're getting to how this is all punctured in just a few minutes. Yeah, even the little bit of of intrigue and hype that we did it.
It might've, you know, cause basically what happens here is, we had always figured it was just a weird scam, to get people to come out there and be tortured.
And basically, you know. And then he was getting his kicks off of it.
He was getting his kicks. We were assuming there was some money being made somehow, but basically there was no way anyone was ever going to win that prize.
That carrot was always going to be out of reach. Yeah, because if you keep changing the goalposts, you're never going to reach it.
You keep moving it, and you keep... and here's the thing, I don't necessarily disagree that, Russ or someone there should have been the arbiter of when they've had enough.
That's very... like in BDSM scenes, that's often something you have to do, is step in, even when someone isn't tapping out, necessarily.

[22:23] But it's completely incompatible with the idea of a cash prize.
It's probably better from a safety standpoint, but it's incompatible with the idea of a cash prize for completion.
Right. And this is like a $20K cash prize, right? Yeah, it's a significant cash prize.
But we didn't know that before.
Yeah. But basically, the thing that angered us, and I think many other haunters, was that he claimed to be a haunter, when objectively, he is not.
No. I mean, even the business model isn't the same.
No, I mean there's you it's like calling an orange and a strawberry the same thing because they both have a lot of vitamin c.

[23:02] And their fruit. You know haunted attractions and whatever the fuck mckamey manor was doing, used fear but that's the only thing they had in common. Well and that's the only thing they said they had in common. But no they did call themselves a haunted attraction. They did. Haunted house. Yeah they called it but they weren't it and everyone that i've ever talked to has said no that's not, you know they should stop labeling themselves with us we don't want them to be part of us that's not what we do. We respect people. We want people to have a good time and that's not what this is about. And the difference between I think haunters is, hey, we're having to run a mass business. We're not getting one person through a week for a bag of dog food. No. It's not gonna work. The other thing though is we want for people to have a fun, safe time while being scared. Exactly. Fun and safe are items one and two. Scary is a distant third. If someone comes through my haunt, I And they're smiling and happy? I don't care if they didn't get scared. We entertained.

[24:07] Would I prefer they get scared? Yes. But am I going to be sad that I entertained someone?
Fuck no. But yeah, the problem is because he claimed that, and still does to my knowledge, he took up coverage and he took up interest that should have gone to actual hunters. And it always pissed me off because so much of the coverage was from local news sites.
Yeah, I know like that your local was like covering a random some random bullshit going on in california Don't you have a pro haunt or a charity haunt or god damn it a home haunt?
You could be given that air time too. Well, and that's that is the thing that we've always said that, He did well. Yeah was marketing and hype fooling people. Yeah into believing him Well, that's gonna be a little more difficult now hopefully Um, but yeah, I I bet he just sent out a slew of press releases and it always got picked up. Yeah, Probably right. Yeah, because you call yourself the most extreme people on the house and, Hit these bullet points the most extreme the most dangerous. Yeah, whatever.

The Guy Moves to Tennessee and Disappears

[25:11] But yeah, I know and and I gotta be honest. We lost sight of the guy for a while, Because he moved from california to tennessee if I remember correctly. Yeah, and he did it before the pandemic Yeah. And so between the move and him, he moved somewhere surreptitiously rural, apparently on the Tennessee-Arkansas state line.
Yeah, Between moving somewhere rural and the pandemic and everything else I honestly hadn't heard or given a thought to him and to do the whole thing in about four years, Yeah, I think it was 2020, Because it was the last honk on in New Orleans. Yeah, Basically, I've not given him any thought and you know, I lost complete track of this, Yeah, and yeah, but basically to be clear we never liked him I can honestly forgive and kind of admire the scam bit because I, Like a good good because it's also an open scam too. It's not like you know, I mean.

[26:10] I don't like scammers either but I can almost respect that but when you're fucking with the haunt industry and making things difficult for actual haunters That's when I get really pissy. Mm-hmm. So this takes us to the videos, Once again reckless Ben and Danny Burke, that's be RK Go to there will be links to their YouTube channels. I'm just going to the channels and to Ben's patreon I think yeah, I think this is some of the easiest way because it linked the individual videos is a waste of time.

[26:38] Basically what they did is they applied for the tour at McKamey Manor. They were both selected almost immediately Yeah within an hour, which is surprising because they're supposed to be this, 17,000 long waiting list Like we toyed with the idea when we first heard about it, but then we heard, oh, there's this giant waiting list.
There's no way we would ever get in. So we never even like looked beyond that before we knew anything about what it was supposed to be about.
Yeah. This is even, I think, pre Bernie Baxter days, actually. Yeah.
Like we had heard the name and heard that it was supposed to be intense.
We were not actually haunters at the time. No. I don't think so. Yeah.
It's been around a while. another thing to learn. But yeah, so, but yeah, it was really suspicious because, that they edited the NDA. Which is hilarious. So that, because basically, apparently, he shipped a, printed contract to them. Yeah. Through postal mail. Right. They took the contract and, Edited it. I guess scanned it and got or or maybe he emailed it Yeah, they edit it and then printed it and stripped it back. Yeah, they changed the you.

NDA Violation: Damages Reduced to $1

[27:54] Damages for violating the NDA to $1 was tens of thousands. It was 50,000 and they changed it to one Yeah, because they could pay one. They couldn't pay 50. Yeah 50,000. Yeah, so but yeah, And I'm not even really going to get into that because like I said, I don't know anything about contract law I know my limits. I have no idea about that, but it is fucking hilarious. It's definitely funny, Well at that point it was not signed by either party. Yeah, so I.

[28:22] Working for I am also not a lawyer not giving legal advice in any way shape or form, But I did work for a lawyer And do some paralegal-ish duties, so. I did. So I would say that they are in the clear on this one.
Okay. But that's just my guess. I am, like I said, not a lawyer. Also, we're in Louisiana, and Louisiana law is very different from on some things. We kind of are, yeah. We're weird little bastards on this. We are. Long stories. Yeah.
But anyways, they both completed the tour, and I want to put air quotes around every word in that.
A completed tour and everything. But basically in both cases, the tour was just them doing exercises in some dude's front yard while wearing comical onesies and getting covered in paint and glitter.
Yeah, for Ben at least. Well yeah, Ben got that latter part. They both had the onesies.
Yeah, they both had onesies. But yeah, and then Ben also had to crawl around quote-unquote rat race, which was apparently a cage maze where you're crawling on your stomach or your back.
Yeah. It was hard to tell what the fuck was actually going on in that.
Yeah, I'm not sure. Well, they're spraying you with a garden hose.
Yeah. Basically, it's a form of waterboarding.

[29:40] But here's the thing, McKamey, I mean, Ben's tour went on for, according to Ben, for over two hours.
Yeah, because he kept trying and trying to get into the actual haunted house.
And to be clear, look at some of Ben's other videos. He is amazingly athletic.
Yeah.
Like he is in ridiculously good shape from an endurance and a strength standpoint.
This guy can go as hard as anyone.
Yeah. I'm very sure of that fact.
Yeah, even his body quit after two hours of that horse shit.
And I'm amazed that it was two hours.
Yeah. I spent 40 minutes with a personal trainer. I want to die.

[30:16] No kidding. He did two hours of that horse shit. Yeah.
Um, so I'm it's incredibly amazing. He lasted as long as he did and that they basic and basically like you said he was trying to get into the actual this was him earning his way into the haunt. You got it. Yeah, you're way into the haunt and da da da da da and despite two hours of absolutely batshit insane senseless exercise. Yeah, he did not earn his way into the haunt.
Right and I could totally see the clips that they're going to take from his before the haunt, tour and put it into their fucking marketing shit, you know?
Well, yeah, and then he was offered a chance to go into the haunt if he attempted physically impossible tasks.

[31:04] Yeah. Like, one was take a straight jacket off while you're in a casket. Yeah.
Impossible. Anybody that's ever learned the process of taking a straight jacket off, I have very, very loose shoulders, so I actually did learn it at one point, just in case it ever came He's right, though.
You have to take your arm up and around your head, and you cannot do that in a casket.
You're confined in the box. It literally is physically impossible.
So these were physically impossible tasks. And basically what happened is, the long and short of the videos, too late, I know, is that there's not much evidence that McKamey Manor exists today at all in any capacity. Right, and there are things that are in the contract that are supposed to be on the property. And even marketed on some of the promotional stuff too, if I recall.
Yeah, that are just complete fabrication. Like a two-mile zip line? Yeah, that would be the longest in the world. Yeah, in the world, and it'd be double the nearest length. Yeah. Like it wasn't like the longest one in the United States a mile?
Yeah. So yeah, this supposed to have this giant warehouse full of stuff and the giant underwater pool. Oh yeah, the giant underwater pool slash tunnel. Yeah.
Yeah, it was a tunnel too and it was very confusing how that works. Yeah.
You're supposed to be able to swim 200 yards linearly in or something like that. Yeah.

[32:29] Yeah, it was weird and confusing. But yeah, but basically there's no proof fitting this exist and in fact when challenged he couldn't even produce a rat. Yeah. The guy that supposedly had thousands of rats in Rat Race could not produce a singular rat. No. I can produce a rat I just gotta wait for my cat to go, catch the right creature and bring it in. Yeah. I just need a little time I can get you a rat. It'll probably still be alive too because that little asshole is bringing shit in for the other cat to hunt because the other cat's a lazy fucking You bitch!

[33:05] Sorry, I needed that yeah cat problems at home. Apparently, you know you ranting is one of the favorite things, Seriously, how are those cats litter mates? I don't know. So yeah So basically they posted those videos, Highlighting that and now McCamey Manor are threatening to sue them They are claiming both copyright and trademark infringement and I'm assuming breach of contract though wasn't specifically mentioned in any of it that I recall. Right. But that led Ben to, is it doubling or tripling down at this point? Which down are we on? Quadrupling?
Yeah, it's beautiful is what it is. It is a beautiful tactic. And here's the thing, I've told you the core of the video about McCamey Manor. If you are, seriously, I'm giving you one last special spoiler warning. Yeah. Because we're going to give away some of the things they did.
These are beautiful. I really do think you should experience them first there. I really genuinely do.

[34:08] Okay warning is passed He first created his own company named mckamey manor, And is actually right now mckamey manor.org Right where he's selling rat related merchandise. Yes, So there's no confusion in the marketplace there because mckamey manor doesn't have rats. It's the whole joke, um, and the other thing is he's He created another company to hold similar tours to what his experience with McCamey Manor was.
Yeah, he basically is trying to get a trademark lawsuit because the tours are of a different, company, a different name, but people still show up and then don't get to go in.
Yeah, and he's falsely promising. Yeah, he's falsely promising they'll get to go in.
He's standing in front of a warehouse he doesn't even own.
Basically, it's hilarious. Yeah.

The confusion around McKamey Manor's trademark and naming.

[35:05] So yeah. So that is something that would cause, you know, confusion, because I do think that he did trademark it as McKamey Manor or name it that. I thought he named that one something different. I think he was being cheeky and doing one as the trademark and one as the kind of the business model thing. Gotcha. But the, thing is like, and I'm not going, going forward I'm not going to discuss the legality of these because it's very hard to assess the seriousness. Yeah.
Cuz okay, let's just be honest. He is not named well thought-out Ben, You know, he's reckless been these obviously were crazy reckless things so it's hard for me to gauge how serious.

The Sad Reality of the Haunted Attraction Scam

[35:50] It's the exact wrong amount of thought out because, It's hilarious But maybe not the wisest thing in other ways But anyways, the videos, what we learned, and there were three takeaways for me, and the first one was the scam is way more sad than I ever imagined, personally.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, and I imagined pretty sad stuff, I didn't go this far.
No, I mean, I thought that there would be something.
Some actual... Some actual haunted attraction element. It doesn't exist.
There's no evidence of it, at least. And it's something now it may have been different previously and a lot of people have indicated it was.

[36:34] But it's been this for years now. Mm-hmm, and the promotion really hasn't changed any no, and If this is what it is, this is sad This is I mean, honestly, it begins to feel more pathetic than it does rage inducing Yeah, it really does because basically he became he's now closer to a cruel personal trainer than a torture artist. Yeah, Yeah He's an uncertified dickhead personal trainer.
Basically, um, yeah, and like you've said before, Ben and Dan are both very athletic. Yeah.
They do crazy things on their channel.
Yeah. And Dan especially seems to really get a kick out of pain.
Yeah. Kicking the goolies, as we say.

[37:28] In fact, when he started begging, literally begging, while doing the tour and while on the live stream doing the tour, literally started begging to do the wasps and that type of shit because he had videos of him on his channel getting stung by really painful bugs.
It's something he's done and something he seems to, don't ask me to fuck why.
He's put hot sauce in his eye. I don't understand, but to each their own.
I also don't understand why he's not reckless Dan.

[38:03] Seems like Ben might've gotten that name first.
Should be dangerous Dan, but I think that was actually a guy from the 70s.
No, I think it probably is.
But anyway, no. So Russ taps out. Yeah. He's like, he quit. I can't do it, it's not safe, he wants it.

Dan Wins $20k as Russ Taps Out, Ben Under Fire

[38:22] He's enjoying it. He's not in the right mindset, you know. He's not right in the head, whatever, just he's not saying, and the thing is, he might not be, but you're the one who gave up.
Yeah.
I mean, so yeah. So in my mind, Dan wins that money.
Dana's 20k richer. He didn't he didn't stop he was begging for more Yeah, he was pleading for more and by the time the end of it because, It looked like Ben didn't give him a lot of heads up Dan was actively mad at Ben and thinking that he was being pranked by Ben, Yeah, you promised me I was gonna get tortured man. I wanted to come and do the scary stuff and there's no scary stuff Yeah, Basically, it was it was just really sad Yeah, really pathetic and I I don't understand the audience for the market for this at all, especially right now Yeah, and I do love that they are.

[39:22] Trying to Change the minds of the followers of this place. Yeah, because the second problem thing that we learned is, Just how much those around him believe I I mean Ben, okay, Reckless Ben and Dan and their other videos one of the things they do a lot of its infiltrate cults, Yeah, yeah, they did with a couple in there and they apparently had some pretty scary moments doing it once again No, he's not named highly sensible Ben.

[39:53] Reckless Ben. Yeah, so, you know, but he So basically though he said that this was the most cult thing He had seen he even used the term brainwashing. Yeah, I do not like the term brainwashing personally, but yeah, the people close to, This really are committed, For one reason or another right and They found out about him because there was a guy named wolf who started an anti-mm, Channel on Facebook. Yeah a group and, And that's how they found out about the manor.

The Sad Reality and Lack of Impact

[40:34] Yeah.

[40:34] But yeah, it's just, it's amazing how much people close to the manor believe it. Yeah.
They just completely buy in. And the third thing we learned, and this is the sad one, is it may not matter.
Yeah. I mean, let's be clear. Any intimidation, any fear, anything I've been hanging on to at all when McCamey died.
A very fiery death watching these videos.
Because this isn't even the scam I was angry about this isn't what I was angry This is much more pathetic than that. Yeah, this is not even worth my anger. It's pitiable. Yeah, it's sad.

[41:20] But it may not matter because though these videos are doing well most have hundreds of thousands of views, I'm back though the latest one. I believe just hit 600k, you go to the pro McCamey videos and And those are in the millions typically. Now granted, they've often had years to build that up.
Right. And I will say this the last few times because I've been searching for other videos.
I'm doing research for this. Every time I've searched for it, these videos have come up first.
Yeah.

[41:51] But yeah. Ben and Dan's. Ben and Dan's, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's still obvious.
And the other thing is that the truth has been known for some time.
There was the whole, like you said, wolf in that group.
It's not like there hasn't been some open knowledge about this, just not knowledge I ran across because like I said, I hadn't heard shit about this in like four years.
Right.
Well, and apparently we also found out how he made the money, and that's by selling live streams.
It seems that way. It seems that way.
It wasn't made clear in the video, but he has a private group where the videos are live streamed.
Yeah. The tours, the quote unquote tours.
And the thing is the media still buys into the hype though.
Yeah. Which is what's frustrating. It is. It's very frustrating.
It's a good story for easy clicks, I admit, and I just don't think people care.
Even though it's like I said taking oxygen and taking time and attention away from legitimate haunted attractions that are trying to not only, Put on a safe fun time, but also do good and support the community. No.

[42:55] So IP stuff Yay. Yay. What a much time we got we got like 10 minutes or so. So we got enough time, There really isn't that much here. Uh, Repeat I am not a lawyer not legal advice copyright expert 20 to 15 years of experience professionally 20 years, in general diddly diddly. According to Ben, McCamey Manor has threatened or said they're going to sue them. I have could not find the lawsuit. No. I did check Pacer. A, it might not have hit Pacer yet. It's possible if it hasn't filed. Also, if he filed in state court, it wouldn't show up in Pacer. Pacer is federal only, but if he's filing for in state court, he's not suing for copyright because Copyright is federal only right. What about trademark trademark can't be state or federal. Okay, It's a it's a bit weird. But yeah, so honestly, I couldn't find the lawsuit. That doesn't mean much one way or the other though. I, Just want to make the note that I checked. Yeah.

[43:55] But basically and also I don't want to talk about the stuff He did after going on the tours and after the McCain a manner threats because like I said, it's hard for me to gauge How serious that is?
So and furthermore, it's also I'm not going to talk about contract law issues because not my area, I don't know how well that would stand up You would actually know more than me and you seem to think it's pretty brilliantly smart Yeah, I do too because as long as they got the contract without, Russ's signature on it. Yeah, as long as it was a blank contract Yeah, Then they could change anything and send it back and and if they signed it without rereading and now you know the downside of a 40 page. Yeah, well I mean, so I've, I read a lot of contracts in my jobs. That was one of my specialties is reading contracts and finding the flaws. And every time a client would send it back, I would have to reread it before the president signed it because Sometimes they would try to change shit.

Lengthy Contracts and Trademark Threats

[45:03] And so yeah maybe and actually i said 40 page didn't he say it was 200 pages or something like that i don't remember i don't remember it was a big huge fucking contract yeah it sounds about like you know what i had to sign for my vasectomy for the love of god seriously long legal documents, um but anyways so so now we get to the trademark issue which is really the big one they seem to be be threatened with. Because basically they told Ben and Dan that if they used the name McCamey Manor in their videos, they said the name, that they would be sued, that it's trademark infringement. That is utter and complete fucking horse shit.
Yes, it is. There needs to be some more obscenities there, but I wanted to get to the horse shit quicker. That is bullshit piled high, that is bullshit on toast that is bullshit on a plane that is bullshit with a crane that is, somebody who does not understand how it works at all hey let's have a little fun here um Apple Amazon Johnson and Johnson we mentioned Home Depot and Lowe's Oh Home Depot and Lowe's WWE spirit spirit Halloween yeah you know what these are, These are all trademarks. Yeah, and we just said about loud on a podcast being distributed to dozens of people.

Trademarks Namedropped: Apple, Amazon, Home Depot, WWE

[46:32] We're not gonna get sued because that's not what trademark protects No trademark is there to prevent confusion in the marketplace which means I cannot open a quote when I guess it would be a haunted attraction, named McKamey Manor.
Yeah, because that could cause confusion in the marketplace But I can say the name on a podcast or a YouTube video until I'm blue in the face, Yeah, that is not an infringement, No Basically because I mean think about it. We wouldn't be able to talk about shopping at Lowe's or Walmart or whatever. We don't know.

[47:09] Let go into spirit. Like you said spirit Halloween to pick up stuff. We wouldn't be able to talk about this We'd be we went to the Halloween store with the temporary signs Yeah, we probably wouldn't even be able to talk about the conferences that we cover because a lot of them have trademark names Yeah, we couldn't talk about trans world. We've got trans world super trademark. Exactly. We didn't call it trans world, We'd have to know it doesn't prevent you from saying the mark no it or talking about it It prevents you from using it as a business or a good and in the course of business in a confusing way, Yeah, that is it trademark is you're able to trademark you're able to protect something very small like a name But it's a very limited scope of protection which makes it kind of the opposite of copyright and that with copyright you need, Creativity you need something more than just a name, but your protection is much more robust, And to that end the both of them used McCamey recorded footage to make their videos, basically what happened is, They filmed everything up to the point. They arrived pretty much Thank you so much.

[48:13] You and then obtained the live stream of their tours, and used clips from that in the YouTube videos.
Now, there may be a DMCA, Digital Millennium Copyright Act, issue in obtaining, the way they obtained the video.
They were very sparse on details on how they got it.
They just said they got the live stream. They didn't say how they got into the private group, or how they downloaded the video.
Know how they actually did. I do it all the time with Facebook because I have to oftentimes our live chats have to do it. But I'm not gonna sue myself so it doesn't matter if I do it. But anyways, so there may be an issue there because that may be considered circumvention of a copyright protection measure. But that said, I could not find any copyright registrations at all tied to anything for Russ McCamey or McCamey Manor.
There's a problem with that. Yeah, because in these United States at least, we're focusing on the US here where all this takes place, basically you don't have to file a trademark registration in order to sue for trademark. You just have to use it in the course of business.

[49:27] Your protection's going to be more limited, what you're able to get in damages is lessened, but it's still trademark infringement.
With copyright in the United States, again, you have to register with the United States Copyright Office before filing a lawsuit.
You cannot file a lawsuit until that registration is in hand.
You can file with the Copyright Claims Board as soon as you have a service number, but, But you cannot file a lawsuit in full federal court.
Without a copyright registration and so that is a potentially bigger deal. But here's the thing, even with those issues, I think even if those issues could be eliminated, there's a very strong fair use argument here. Like in Ben's case in particular, his tour was supposedly over two hours and he showed maybe what five, ten minutes of actual video from it and some stills. Yeah, maybe that. It wasn't much. A very small amount was used. It was very much for the purpose of commentary and criticism and I don't think it harms the actual market for the original work.
So yeah, I think this would have a very, very strong fair use argument, even if those other issues could be eliminated. So I'm very skeptical here about any trademark or copyright argument right now. Right, and it's also for educational purposes. It's to educate the general public.

[50:47] Yeah. So, honestly, that's really it. It's basically, I didn't, I wanted to make it clear that no, once again, not a lawyer, all that stuff, but I did not see a way that McCamey Manor is likely to succeed on an IP front against Reckless Ben or Dan. But that's the main point I wanted to get across. Maybe they can pull something out. Maybe there's something I I didn't think of but I know the space pretty well and yeah and I'm just gonna put out there again that I am also not a lawyer but but the thing is like when they're making obviously wrong threats yeah like you can't say our name in your YouTube video like that is a just plain wrong right they're making that you get the feeling that maybe we're not dealing with legal geniuses I don't know whatever gave you that thought.
It's just, because, and that's just it. I believe that McCamey Manor has used the threat of litigation very, very well as a, tool for combating.
In fact, that was one of the things that came out was several of the people who did those promos, those breathless, scared promos, apparently they were doing it not under the threat of torture, but the threat of litigation if they didn't.

[52:09] Is so then that's just it that that is what's happened like even I will admit I never wanted to talk about this about McKamey Manor ever I never wanted to do.

[52:21] It and then that fucking Haunters movie made us and I got pissed about that but the point is like I will admit I not like McKamey Manor, McKamey I have not liked what his claims to be in the haunt industry I've never liked pretty much anything about it, but I'll admit it still held some mystique as this bizarre torture farm where I don't fucking know what's going on.
Yeah.
And now that that veil has been lifted and pierced so thoroughly? Yeah.

[52:53] Feel it's it's just sad. I'm really glad we didn't spend any money to go and do that. Yeah, Yeah, I mean I'm because we would have it's just so sad, It's it's like this is the quote-unquote Scariest haunted house in the world. This is the most intense haunted house experience you can have He's a he's a shitty personal trainer with a garden hose and no glad craft projects, Yeah, basically he's doing all of summer camp in a two-hour session. Here's water sports. Here's your exercise. Here's the glitter, Here's arts and crafts, yeah, He's cramming like a week of summer camp into two hours he's hell of a camp counselor Yeah, anyways, I don't know what else to say Thank you very much for spending the past hour with us. If you have I'd like to hear your thoughts on it Please do get in touch. We're at hauntweekly.com, hauntweekly on Twitter, hauntweekly on Facebook, YouTube.com slash haunt weekly and you can also find us wherever you get your podcast from, But until next time, I'm Jonathan, I'm Crystal, and we will see you all next week.